routes with street intersections as viapoints, NOT POIs

Jack, interesting option that I hadn't considered. My understanding is that a point on the intersection is a shaping point (i.e. an unannounced via point). Placed off of the intersection it would be a via point (i.e. be announced on the gps). Is there some margin or buffer whereby if the point is just past (or just before) the intersection it is still a shaping point (i.e. unannounced)?

Also, what happens when one inverts the route - does that create problems with it being announced (now it is just before the intersection)?

Regards

I only have a 276C and I don't know if it exhibits the same behavior as the ZUMO series, i.e., gets so confused when it finds a shaping point in an intersection that it forgets to announce it. (I think I will try that out today.) I'll also try reversing the route.

Usually my routes are one-way, e.g., first half of the Trans-America Trail, the Blue Ridge Parkway, and others. If I think I am going to do them both ways I actually create a separate route for each direction. with unique shaping points if I have the time.

From what I observe it looks like Basecamp probably operates much better on Macs but it is very 'buggy' on Windows. For example, I'm using Windows XP with all the service packs and plenty of memory. Cntl + Z will seldom work. Instead I have to open up the edit window and press 'undo'. Right now I'm using a laptop and can't open the properties window. Why? when I last had it open, the laptop was hooked up to double monitors and the properties window was last opened on the secondary monitor. To use it, I'll have to hook up the monitors and move the properties window over to the primary monitor. I could go on but won't. The important part is that I only started using Basecamp 3 days ago to do straight forward maps - nothing complicated.

If you don't mind, we are very interested in more details that don't seem to "click" in the Windows BaseCamp version. So please do go on. :)

Ctrl-Z. If Undo works, but Ctrl-Z doesn't, is it possible that you are hitting Z before Ctrl and therefore pick the Zoom tool (Z is the short-cut for that)? I will look into making this work better.

I will also create a case for better dual monitor support.

As evidenced in this thread, we still have some work to do for making BaseCamp a better choice for Zumo users.

Is there something else Motorcycle-specific that you are missing in BaseCamp in comparison to MapSource? Or something you are missing that neither MapSource nor BaseCamp offer?

Three big factors for me are line precision, distance (zooming in and out) and the ability to not let POIs get in the way.

Per distance, "last screen view" functionality would be a tremendous plus and neither MS or BC has it. For example, I'll often want to zoom on a small portion of the map by outlining a specific area with the zoom button. Thereafter, I want to go back to the previous view. A "Cntl+L" type functionality for "last" view would be a big big plus.

For precision, the ability to "lock in" on the center of intersections and roads without having to zoom down to the maximum. A big concern in shaping routes is as accurate placement as possible. Being able to place viapoints and shaping points simply and accurately will be a big addition. For more ideas in this direction, a simple CAD software like AutoSketch could be consulted.

For POIs, its the ability to not let them get in the way. A the minimum it is being able to turn them off. In BC I can control them them from displaying but when it comes time to create route, there they are in popup windows etc that make it quite frustrating. There needs to be more control and workable rules between shaping a route and POIs. At the minimum it would be to not let them interfere with laying down shaping points. Longer-term may the idea of a layered approach (similar to CAD programs).

Ctrl-Z. If Undo works, but Ctrl-Z doesn't, is it possible that you are hitting Z before Ctrl and therefore pick the Zoom tool (Z is the short-cut for that)? I will look into making this work better.

I will also create a case for better dual monitor support.

I'll monitor it more closely to give more details but I use Ctrl -Z in a lot of other applications without a problem.

Per other issues:
1) The dataview screen doesn't hold it's place. For example, if I have twenty routes and scroll down so that route 10 is at the top, and double click on route 10 to see properties, route 10 moves to the bottom of the display.

2) Explanations of buttons do not always appear. Not as important once one becomes familiar with the software buttons but it is not consistent.

3) Waypoints and routes are all mixed together. Would be much easier to keep straight if all routes were together and separate from waypoints.

4) The proliferation of popup dialogue balloons that do little but get in the way. They give the impression one can move the cursor along a street to find an exact street address but in reality the lag time between the cursor and the dialogue balloon is too great. It becomes really annoying especially when one has to make it disappear by clicking on the the x.

The way MS does it, is simpler and not annoying - forget the dialogue balloons (which just adds unnecessary clutter) and use a little box that gives street information and goes away instantly the moment the cursor moves.

5) Finally the help section is terrible. The search and index buttons appear to do absolutely nothing. Type in the search screen for 'waypoint' and 'no topics found'.

I'll create a case for better via-point routing in BaseCamp. The distinction between announced and unannounced via-points has always been a bit too subtle for me (and I assume a lot of our users). .

So subtle in fact, I have yet to understand what yall are talking about: via points, shaping points, vs POIs and WayPoints.... and I consider myself to be fairly tech-savvy.

1) The dataview screen doesn't hold it's place. For example, if I have twenty routes and scroll down so that route 10 is at the top, and double click on route 10 to see properties, route 10 moves to the bottom of the display.

2) Explanations of buttons do not always appear. Not as important once one becomes familiar with the software buttons but it is not consistent.

3) Waypoints and routes are all mixed together. Would be much easier to keep straight if all routes were together and separate from waypoints.

4) The proliferation of popup dialogue balloons that do little but get in the way. They give the impression one can move the cursor along a street to find an exact street address but in reality the lag time between the cursor and the dialogue balloon is too great. It becomes really annoying especially when one has to make it disappear by clicking on the the x.

The way MS does it, is simpler and not annoying - forget the dialogue balloons (which just adds unnecessary clutter) and use a little box that gives street information and goes away instantly the moment the cursor moves.

5) Finally the help section is terrible. The search and index buttons appear to do absolutely nothing. Type in the search screen for 'waypoint' and 'no topics found'.

Thanks again for your feedback.

1. I have trouble reproducing this with 3.2.1 with the steps you've given. I switched to data view, switched to route filter (23 routes), scrolled down so route 8 was on visible on top of the list. Double-clicked to show properties, list doesn't move. Are you using a different version or am I missing something?

2. We will try to be more consistent with that.

3. Wouldn't our filters accomplish just that? Or sort them by type (symbol works usually as well).

4. Yes, this has been reported before. We have a case for this.

5. I agree that the help could use some improvements.

The concepts are quite simple. It's the method of distinguishing one from the other that is likely quite subtle in the code.

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases.

Shaping Point - In Mapsource, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. Mapsource does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Mapsource/Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

To easily illustrate this, you can create a two-point route in Mapsource by clicking on a Point A and a Point B that will require a few turns to get from one to the other. Now export the route to a GPX file and take a look at it with Notepad or your favorite text editor. You will see that, in addition to the starting point and the ending point, there will be a bunch of other points <rtept> in the file to control all the turns.

I apologize if you already knew all that. Perhaps it will be helpful to others with inquiring minds. :)

...ken...

May I move this into a separate thread and sticky it? This is a great explanation and might be useful for a lot of people in the future.

Thanks Falagar. I was trying for something understandable that someone might be able to relate to rather than something that is technically perfect. If you think it's close enough, I would be happy to have it stickied.

...ken...

So I just saw an note on another board about the demise of Mapsource. So I downloaded Base camp to give it a try. Sigh...

I fully realize that I have a lot of time on Mapsoruce and almost no time on Base Camp... but all I have to say is "Really?"

Is it possible to add a waypoint to an existing route and not have it assume you want it at the end? In Mapsource I would open the route properties and add it where I wanted it and then recalculate the route. With Basecamp it appears to be add it, wait for recalculate, open the properties and change order then recalculate again. Am I doing something wrong?

I agree that the inability to shape a route is supremely annoying. I used to turn most of my shaping points into Waypoints just because route recacluation is unpredictable across the various Garmin products and various firmware versions, some ignore those shaping points on a recalc, some dont, but still my workflow on basecamp is a lot slower.

Hopefully Mapsource will be at least minimally supported with future map updates and bug fixes.