Bug Report - Start Finish Confusion

I'm not always inclined to let the developers off the hook but in this case it's not their fault, for a couple of reasons.

1. It's the GPS device that's running the route, therefore it's the responsibility of the device to sort out start from finish. But that's likely to be difficult if you place the start and finish too close to each other, because...

2. The accuracy of the device is likely going to be low enough that the start and finish will need to be separated by a significant distance to avoid confusion between them in the device. Basecamp can't possibly know what that distance should be. In any case you are the one placing the start and finish and Basecamp is just assigning them where you place them.

As a specific example, I have my eTrex Venture HCx and my Montana 600 sitting here in front of me. They have been turned on for about 15 minutes, have a location found and locked.

The eTrex is fairly steady at 3 meters accuracy with occasional drifting to 4 or 5 meters.

The Montana is drifting more frequently between 3 meters and 6 meters.

So, if I had a route where I placed the Finish within - at best, on my eTrex - a 3 meter (10 foot) radius of the Start i should expect the device to have some confusion about whether I'm just starting or whether I'm already where I wanted to be. If I want to accommodate a more normal situation for either of the two devices I would need to place the start and finish at least 7 meters apart.

If I don't want to wait long enough for the device to stabilize at its maximum accuracy AND then move myself as close to the coordinates of the Start position I selected before I select the route, then I need to designate the Finish location even further away from the Start.

...ken...

If a route is developed with the start or finish the same point or too close together, after loading to GPS, the GPS often will decide you have completed the route when you start.

This is not a Basecamp issue.

It's actually a consequence of the GPS being able to pick up the route anywhere along the route.

The GPS determines the position on the route that is closest to your actual position and assumes you are starting there. That simple approach works fine except for case where the start and end points are close together.

The GPS software has to be made smarter to avoid picking the end point. Maybe, it could also determine the distance to the start and, if the distance was close and small, it could ask you if you want to start at the start.

Anyway, this is a known issue and it's mostly avoidable by putting the endpoint short of the actual start point.

2. The accuracy of the device is likely going to be low enough that the start and finish will need to be separated by a significant distance to avoid confusion between them in the device. Basecamp can't possibly know what that distance should be. In any case you are the one placing the start and finish and Basecamp is just assigning them where you place them.

It's not really a consequence of accuracy (though the variability of the position measurement has an effect).

It's just the GPS picking the closest point to your current measured position.

People often don't start their GPS exactly at the start point.

This is not a Basecamp issue.
......
Anyway, this is a known issue and it's mostly avoidable by putting the endpoint short of the actual start point.

Yes. And as I pointed out in my reply, it will depend on the most typical accuracy of the device to be used.

As I mentioned in my first reply, my eTrex will get to 3 meters at best but drifts up to 4 and 5 meters occasionally. My Montana will also get to 3 meters but drifts up to 5 and 6 meters, and drifts much more frequently.

I just tested my Nuvi 765. The best it will do is 4 meters after 15 minutes. It drifts to 5 and 6 meters but not as frequently as the Montana.

I was curious and decided to test my phone just for fun (it's a Google Nexus 5). So far the best I've seen is 3 meters accuracy with the most common/frequent readings being 4 to 10 meters and not as stable as the dedicated GPS devices.

It needs to be kept in mind that these accuracy readings were obtained with the devices sitting still in one location, a clear view of up to 20 satellites and using at least 10 to 12 of them. The constellation they were using were spread out nicely in all four quadrants of the sky which gives optimum accuracy for both latitude and longitude.

So if someone wants to avoid the start/finish issue they need to know what the typical accuracy of their device is in more realistic use AND (as dpawlyk said) use that knowledge to place the Finish enough short of the Start to avoid the possibility of confusion AND place themselves as close as possible to their selected Start position before starting the route.

...ken...

its a simple logic and software matter to differentiate the start from finish......... if the route has not progressed.... then its the start. Or simply the device should ask the question is this the start? I have workarounds for this and several other Basecamp bugs and annoyances but why not evolve and improve.........and why arent they evolving and improving. I hope this is just a repeat of something they are already aware of, but if not Im hoping the developers occasionally browse forums for issues that catch their attention to make Basecamp a better application.

O

But what, exactly, is it you think could be done in Basecamp by the Basecamp developers to get around a problem that is clearly not theirs?

I don't disagree that the device developers could probably do something about it, as you described. I just don't get what the Basecamp developers can do?

...ken...

Yes that is one of the bug work arounds is to plan the route in Basecamp so the start and stop are not the same point but close enough you know how to get there without the GPS. Another is to not to start the GPS directions until you are a few miles into the route and the paths are not close at that point, e.g., other side of the road. I would be nice if one didnt have to address the Basecamp anomalies all the time, but its a minor inconvenience given the total benefit of Basecamp.

I suspect it isn’t as simple as gps accuracy. My guess would be the Arriving and Destination is triggered by proximity to the final point and it is possible it this value will vary based on speed (you would want a longer distance – for adequate time - driving at highway speeds versus walking). Based on device behavior, it would appear that this trigger terminates Route Navigation and reverts to Direct Navigation to the destination.

I’m not sure what a user can do to overcome this. You could try using a waypoint for the destination and set the Proximity Alarm for the waypoint to 1 foot. But I suspect that a Proximity Alarm isn’t what a device use for the proximity to the destination during Navigation. You could try starting navigation past the start point – say 100ft or 100yds – to get outside of the Arriving at Destination trigger. You could also try converting the Route to a Track and try navigating the Track to see if it behaves differently.

Of course, in all instances, it would be important that the device doesn’t auto-recalculate if it determines that you are off route.

So if someone wants to avoid the start/finish issue they need to know what the typical accuracy of their device is in more realistic use AND (as dpawlyk said) use that knowledge to place the Finish enough short of the Start to avoid the possibility of confusion AND place themselves as close as possible to their selected Start position before starting the route.

You only need to do one thing: put the end point short of the course start point and your actual start point (which should be close the course start point).

You don't have to worry about the accuracy of your device (if that's an issue, your end point needs to be shorter).

You really don't need the end point to be close to the start point.