Waypoint repositioning errors for small repositioning values.

Former Member
Former Member
BaseCamp for Mac Version 4.2.4 (4.2.4) running on a 20 inch mid 2007 iMac with 4GB memory running OS/X 10.9.1

Workflow Goal: I have a list of waypoints from a third party in Lat/Lon hddd.ddddd form, however the actual waypoints only have 4 digit precision. My task is to put them into BaseCamp and then check their position on the Garmin maps, in this case I am using City Navigator North America NT 2014.3 which is a download pursuant to a Lifetime map subscription associated with my BMW branded Nav-V device. If the waypoint is not located on the required map feature, usually a road bed, then I am to reposition it onto the feature, note the new coordinates and eventually send the corrected list along with a GPX file back to the 3rd party in the same 4 digit precision that I started with.

Workflow steps:
1. CMD+L to open the Locate Coordinates: window
2. Typically the coordinates from the last waypoint I created have already populated the Locate Coordinates window
3. Reposition the cursor using the Arrow keys and then use the Backspace key to remove un-needed digits from the mantissa and replace them with the required four digits from my list.
4. Right Click Create Waypoint At... and the Get Info window opens showing the General tab
5. Click on Show on Map and the map pane moves to the newly created waypoint.
6. Zoom in to 80 ft scale (overzoom)
6. Use Option key and Mouse to drag waypoint to map feature.
7. Click on Advanced tab to reveal Position field
8. If the last digit of both Lat and Lon is not zero then use rounding rules to round mantissa's down to four digits and correct the mantissa by changing the minimum number of digits and then hitting enter. If the least significant digit differs by 2 or less from the desired value then I get the this ERROR: In all instances the mantissas change back to the original numbers. Here is an example point: Nxx.42388 Wxxx.23170. I want to change xx.42388 to xx.4239. I delete the 88 and enter either 9 or 90 hit Enter and I get xx.42388 back. I can usually correct it by moving the new Waypoint again far away using the Option key and the Mouse and then typing in the desired new mantissa. Just typing in the new mantissa or even just the full coordinates alone does not work.

By way of experiment I have tried changing the Lon mantissa by one least significant digit, then two and then three, e.g. from the original 42397, to 42396, then to 42395 and then to 42394 and the change finally sticks by the 3rd digit change. Seems to work for Lat, too. So, the simple workaround for my use case is: if the mantissa differs by two or less then add ten to the required change and add the total to the mantissa and hit enter then subtract ten from the resulting mantissa and hit enter again to reposition the waypoint to the desired location.
  • For a number of reasons, including floating point rounding errors, two positions that are inches apart look the same to BaseCamp. I believe the code doesn't believe you made a change to the position so it ignores it. I'll try to do some digging today, but assuming that's the reason, there really isn't much of a workaround, other than what you've already discovered.
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago
    Thanks, azdrmn. I am happy with my workaround and I can get the job done with a few more keystrokes.

    After some extended cogitation subsequent to my original post I thought the problem might lie in rounding during conversion among the different notations.

    But, FWIW, its not inches we are talking about. My plots are out in the Southwest and there a one unit change out in the fifth decimal place in latitude is about 4 feet, and in longitude its about 2 feet so the change detection resolution given the current code is 3 times that, or, 12 feet and 6 feet or the square root of (144 + 36) or about 13.4 feet for a one unit change in both lat and long.

    [I derived those figures by entering two points in BaseCamp whose locations differed by one unit in the 4th decimal place and then used the measuring tool to come up with the values 40 and 20]
  • Jack,

    I'd be interested in the context for your waypoint project. Are you trying to create a route using waypoints from a non-Garmin map?

    I ask because placement of waypoints on Garmin maps from third parties has some very "interesting" wrinkles. Quick example: I helped my son plan his routes for the cross-country Scooter Cannonball in 2008 (San Fran to Ocean City, MD). The official route was created in Google maps. Using GMap to GPX I got it pretty close, but given that all maps are merely approximations of the real world, a number of waypoints were fatal to the routing. In one case, a waypoint a few pixels too close to an on-ramp to an Interstate highway (the Cannonball ran on secondary roads) caused the GPS and BaseCamp to create a massive detour. This did not happen in Google Maps. Moving the waypoint away from the ramp allowed the route to stay on the designated secondary road.

    To put it another way, all the precision you seek may unfortunately result in a waypoint being moved from one place on one map to another on a different map, neither of which is a 100% accurate picture of reality.

    -dan
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago
    Jack,

    I'd be interested in the context for your waypoint project. Are you trying to create a route using waypoints from a non-Garmin map?
    ...

    To put it another way, all the precision you seek may unfortunately result in a waypoint being moved from one place on one map to another on a different map, neither of which is a 100% accurate picture of reality.

    -dan


    Hi dan,

    Lots of wrinkles here, for sure :)

    What I am doing is basically verifying and cleaning up the placement of points from someone's GPS on a bike. Eventually, the waypoints could become part of a Route but are more likely to be used to find the start or end of a Route that has a non-GPS way of navigating it available. IOW, these points will get you to the start or to the end of the Route if you get lost along the way, but, if you want to navigate the Route there is another way available to do it that will ensure fidelity and its better to use that way.

    I am making certain the waypoints really are located on a road, trail, etc. where the Route starts or ends. Basically tedious work of typing the coordinates into BaseCamp and looking at the resulting location on several different versions of Garmin maps and then seeing where they end up when viewed in Google Earth and then moving them around so they are always on a road, trail, etc. On most there is a lot of latitude in the precise placement and they can live with the results I give them but it does portend quite a bit of work for them making the corrections to their Route presentations.
  • Thanks for the info. It may just be my lack of coffee or brain cells this morning, but from your description it sounds like you may be falling victim to the old problem of "pacing off the first mile and measuring the last inch." ;-)

    If the waypoints are "emergency" locators for the start/end of a trail, for example, the precision you are aiming for in BC may be more than the GPS is capable of resolving in the field. If your EPE is 20 feet, that's a lot more than the 13.4 you calculated. And back in the alleged real world, if as a biker I can't see 20 feet to the intersection, I've got problems that BaseCamp can't solve.

    If I've misunderstood the whole deal, apologies in advance.

    -dan
  • In application that allow one to superimpose satellite maps and vector road maps one finds the vector drawn roads all most never match the satellite maps exactly when zoom to the maximum level.
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago
    When the users turn on their GPS or look at the waypoint in BaseCamp or Google Earth I want it to appear where it is expected to appear and not 147 feet up on the side of a mountain or 6.78 miles to the northwest of wherever it should be. So, if its supposed to be on a road, then, when I'm done with my little project it will appear to be on the road and they will have a little more confidence or at least will worry less about the quality of the total guidance package.

    And, quite frankly, I think Garmin should spend some quality time with their code and fix this. If they are going to both report the position to 5 decimal places and position the icon to 5 decimal places then I should be able to edit it to 5 decimal places. Of course I also think that the final positions I am reporting should be listed to 5 decimal places but the decision to use 4 was made way above my pay-grade. I am merely a very happy volunteer on this endeavor trying to do the kind of job I would do for myself for the other folks who will use this output. As a matter of fact I will be using the waypoints myself and having developed an aversion to poorly placed waypoints and the confusion resulting therefrom in the field I want to make sure other folks have the best time they can. If you are going to navigate being anal really helps! :)

    And Danham, you do need to freshen up the coffee a bit. :) I did mention "there is a lot of latitude in the precise placement" in my last sentence in my previous post.
  • ...And Danham, you do need to freshen up the coffee a bit. :) I did mention "there is a lot of latitude in the precise placement" in my last sentence in my previous post.


    Point taken and thanks for the info in your reply.

    I can't resist pointing out that there is also longitude .... [ducking & running]

    -dan
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago
    ... I can't resist pointing out that there is also longitude .... [ducking & running]

    -dan


    Too funny :)))

    Another interesting/non-interesting factoid WRT BaseCamp: I am using the Navaid, Amber symbol as the icon for the waypoints in my project. At the 80 foot scale moving my mouse pointer from the left edge of the icon to the right will cause a change of 8 units in the 5th place position digit. For top to bottom its only 7 units.