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  • First week using Garmin 935/Running Metrics

    Hi all,

    First of all, I'm new to the community so hello , I have been following the forum posts for the past couple of weeks learning about the metrics available on the 935 and limitations etc.

    I'm currently training for my first marathon in May 2018 and aiming to complete it in less than 4 hours, preferably less than 3:30, fully aware of the ambitiousness of this project..

    I've started the Garmin III 16 week schedule 3 weeks ago, the first week and a half on the Garmin 225 and quickly became frustrated with the lag and inaccuracies with the heart rate monitor, so decided to upgrade to 935

    I've posted some of my initial 'performance' measures below and would appreciate any advice from any wiser/experienced individuals in interpreting

    The current training schedule for week 4 looks something like this:

    Monday - 40 minute recovery run Z2
    Tuesday - 30 minute easy run Z2
    Tuesday - Intervals 10 minute Z2, (12 minute Z4, 1 min 30 Z2 rest) x3, cool down
    Wednesday - 45 minute easy run Z2
    Thursday - 30 minute recovery run Z2
    Thursday - Steady run 20 mins in Z2/Z3/Z4 each
    Friday - OFF
    Saturday - 30 minute recovery run Z2
    Saturday - Hills, 10 min Z2 warmup, (10 min Z4, 2 mins Z2) x3, 10 min Z2 cooldown
    Sunday - Long run 1 hour 45 mins Z2

    ...

    My initial impressions are this is perhaps too much workout volume? I've managed it so far but not sure how sustainable it will be for the next 13 weeks,

    I also substituted the Monday/Tuesday easy runs with a lactate test this week which was brutal (And didn't infact provide me with a result)

    Anyways some photos below of initial VO2/Lactate results/Performance effort (note today was first training status went above the threshold after a 1hr 45min run)

    Any and all advice for achieving the marathon goals welcome thanks

    David

    ---

    Other info:
    BMI 24.5
    Age 26
    Male
    Avg Cadence 175

    Attached Files

  • #2
    Since you didn't mention what your past history of training has been I'll just throw out some general general statements.

    Your goal: There's a chasm of difference between 4 and 3.5 hours. You're young so, assuming good health, with good preparation 4 house isn't a huge ask but it still isn't easy. 3:30 is more than a minute per mile faster than 4:00 so going after the faster time if you're not capable of it can mean not even making the slower one. Your first marathon is more about learning than it is fitness so use these next 13 weeks to determine a realistic goal. If that turns out to be 3:30 great, but don't get fixated on that number.

    Marathon training plans: First, they're not carved in stone so don't be afraid to take a rest day or change a workout to an easy run. It's hard without experience to know where the line between following a plan and being challenged but able to handle it and pushing too hard to follow the plan to a "T" and ending up injured or burned out.

    Garmin stats: All of these are estimates that are based partially on the info you feed into them. So make sure that your HRMax, body weight, and height are entered correctly in your Connect profile and that those transfer over to watch correctly. Because they sometimes get overwritten by random changes to either the app or firmware updates. Keep in mind that too that they are estimates so look at them as trends instead of hard numbers that take as gospel and fret over fluctuations.

    Good luck with your training and your race.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by R_Tellis View Post
      Since you didn't mention what your past history of training has been I'll just throw out some general general statements.

      Your goal: There's a chasm of difference between 4 and 3.5 hours. You're young so, assuming good health, with good preparation 4 house isn't a huge ask but it still isn't easy. 3:30 is more than a minute per mile faster than 4:00 so going after the faster time if you're not capable of it can mean not even making the slower one. Your first marathon is more about learning than it is fitness so use these next 13 weeks to determine a realistic goal. If that turns out to be 3:30 great, but don't get fixated on that number.

      Marathon training plans: First, they're not carved in stone so don't be afraid to take a rest day or change a workout to an easy run. It's hard without experience to know where the line between following a plan and being challenged but able to handle it and pushing too hard to follow the plan to a "T" and ending up injured or burned out.

      Garmin stats: All of these are estimates that are based partially on the info you feed into them. So make sure that your HRMax, body weight, and height are entered correctly in your Connect profile and that those transfer over to watch correctly. Because they sometimes get overwritten by random changes to either the app or firmware updates. Keep in mind that too that they are estimates so look at them as trends instead of hard numbers that take as gospel and fret over fluctuations.

      Good luck with your training and your race.
      Seems like very relevant and solid advice in terms of not fretting over the numbers... thanks - Though I must confess the numbers make the whole process more interesting for me

      In terms of my baseline, previously I have ran 5-10k's but endurance/long-distance not at all. I've trained for alot of short distance, high intensity HIIT type work with refereeing rugby previously, again hard to quantify (scored 19.2 on the yo-yo test?)

      In terms of the overall goal, appreciate the magnitude of difference between the times.. I've ran 10ks in less than 50 minutes so know i can hit the 5:00min/km mark required, just not sure if I could sustain that for 42.2k. Of interest the VO2 max score the 935 gives me estimates I would finish the marathon in 3h19m which I find baffling.

      Thanks for your feedback!

      David

      Comment


      • #4
        Rave predictors won’t be far out eg https://www.runnersworld.co.uk/rws-race-time-predictor

        which equate 50mins for a 10K to a 3h50 marathon.

        By the way, you need to do the right amount of training to do that, it’s not guaranteed!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by chunkywizard View Post
          Rave predictors won’t be far out eg https://www.runnersworld.co.uk/rws-race-time-predictor

          which equate 50mins for a 10K to a 3h50 marathon.

          By the way, you need to do the right amount of training to do that, it’s not guaranteed!
          haha for sure thus the attempted 16 week schedule, though my training for that particular 10k was 5 days.. Day 1: Intermittent Sprints, Day 3: 6k jog, Day 5: 10k race! If only I could do the same..

          Comment


          • #6
            Another thing to keep in mind is that the marathon is a different beast mainly because it's long enough to burn all of the fuel stored in your system before you reach the end. Very generally speaking, most people have about enough energy store in their muscles, blood, and stomach at the start of the race to carry them roughly 18-20 miles. So taking some form of gel/chew/whatever to get to the end and its best to try different things in training to find something that works for you.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dlghorner View Post

              Seems like very relevant and solid advice in terms of not fretting over the numbers... thanks - Though I must confess the numbers make the whole process more interesting for me

              In terms of my baseline, previously I have ran 5-10k's but endurance/long-distance not at all. I've trained for alot of short distance, high intensity HIIT type work with refereeing rugby previously, again hard to quantify (scored 19.2 on the yo-yo test?)

              In terms of the overall goal, appreciate the magnitude of difference between the times.. I've ran 10ks in less than 50 minutes so know i can hit the 5:00min/km mark required, just not sure if I could sustain that for 42.2k. Of interest the VO2 max score the 935 gives me estimates I would finish the marathon in 3h19m which I find baffling.

              Thanks for your feedback!

              David

              Hi dlghorner.

              Just to remember that a Marathon is a very serious thing. It is a very big error to extrapolate timmings from a 10k curse to marathon ones. There's something called "the wall" that every runner needs to pass after the 30th kilometer.

              After the wall, the problem is that you have consumed all the calories the body has and (specially) the legs need to be very prepared to pass this kind of course (which will hurt). Your mind will try to say you that you need to stop and then... Have a look at this: https://www.runnersworld.com/for-beg...u-hit-the-wall


              I mean, as a marathon runner.

              - First, and something that EVERYBODY should do when thinking in these kind of races. Visit your doctor and do a medical revision to stress your heart and see how does is respond. This saves lives. A must. He will tell you if are prepared to run such a race
              - Diet. As a runner, you need to have a reasonable diet for runners, especially for long distances and try to control your weight.
              - Be reallistic. I mean, you need to know your posibilities. The worst mistake is to think that we can run as nice as superman, without anyking of serious training. A marathon is a race where you need to control your timmings thinking specially in the long distance.


              I can run 16km at 4.19 km/h , half marathon at 4.25 km/h (near 1h 30min), and the full marathon between 5- 5.10 km/h (that means 3,30 aprox). My timings are not really nice, but show that the progresion, is not a multiplication of time * distance.

              Since you can run 10k, my recommendation is to try first with the 21k and see your timmings trying to prepare the 21k first (is not that easy to run 21k in a reasonable time if you haven't done before) .
              Once you think you are nice with your timmings, you can try to go up to 30k and if you feel comfortable, try to pass the wall and see if you can do the 42k

              In the other side, finishing a marathon is a very grateful experience ;-)

              (sorry for my english)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dreamer_ View Post


                Hi dlghorner.

                Just to remember that a Marathon is a very serious thing. It is a very big error to extrapolate timmings from a 10k curse to marathon ones. There's something called "the wall" that every runner needs to pass after the 30th kilometer.

                After the wall, the problem is that you have consumed all the calories the body has and (specially) the legs need to be very prepared to pass this kind of course (which will hurt). Your mind will try to say you that you need to stop and then... Have a look at this: https://www.runnersworld.com/for-beg...u-hit-the-wall


                I mean, as a marathon runner.

                - First, and something that EVERYBODY should do when thinking in these kind of races. Visit your doctor and do a medical revision to stress your heart and see how does is respond. This saves lives. A must. He will tell you if are prepared to run such a race
                - Diet. As a runner, you need to have a reasonable diet for runners, especially for long distances and try to control your weight.
                - Be reallistic. I mean, you need to know your posibilities. The worst mistake is to think that we can run as nice as superman, without anyking of serious training. A marathon is a race where you need to control your timmings thinking specially in the long distance.


                I can run 16km at 4.19 km/h , half marathon at 4.25 km/h (near 1h 30min), and the full marathon between 5- 5.10 km/h (that means 3,30 aprox). My timings are not really nice, but show that the progresion, is not a multiplication of time * distance.

                Since you can run 10k, my recommendation is to try first with the 21k and see your timmings trying to prepare the 21k first (is not that easy to run 21k in a reasonable time if you haven't done before) .
                Once you think you are nice with your timmings, you can try to go up to 30k and if you feel comfortable, try to pass the wall and see if you can do the 42k

                In the other side, finishing a marathon is a very grateful experience ;-)

                (sorry for my english)
                Hi Dreamer and thank you so much for your in depth and wholesome comment

                I have indeed read about the wall before and have read around the burden of it, appreciating that its one thing to read and another to experience - I will read the article you listed for further info

                In terms of the 3 points you've listed:
                --> I'm living in a Country at the moment with a public health system and being medically trained myself (albeit not a cardiologist..) I know that the types of tests and investigations required to fully conduct a stressed review are not usually provided on the public service, however certainly something to consider paying for I've no family history of cardiac problems/sudden cardiac deaths which is the main risk factor
                --> Diet-wise I'm extremely conscious of what I eat so hopefully no issues there
                --> Realism is like my downfall As I said I am training 8-9 times a week at the moment so if I can maintain this consistancy I hopefully can't blame lack of training, more over ambition

                A half marathon mid-way sounds like a good idea perhaps I will look up a suitable one online certainly my training consists of long runs like this, for example Sunday I ran 18.5k in zone 2 over 1hour 48 minutes.

                Thanks again for your advice!

                David

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi there - interesting post - to me that looks a heavy training load but if you are coming off a base that is similar in duration per week then it should be doable

                  The total looks about 400 mins per week so if you are currently doing 370 a week then that is a reasonable increase.

                  I would possibly question whether you have to do that much - and maybe it's worth mixing in some cross training/cycling

                  You mention a BMI of 24.5 - I don't know where that sits on a marathon running scale but as you run for longer weight is vastly more significant and even guys with phenomenal endurance and fitness (such as Steven Redgrave) can struggle to run quickly (just under 5 hours at age 39).

                  The runners world calculator is good as a rough guide but becomes more accurate as your recent race gets closer to marathon distance (not surprisingly)

                  For example - my first marathon (when much younger and fitter) was 3:21 at the time my best recent 10K was 37 Minutes - so runners world would give me a possible 2:50 time!!

                  So the 3:50 based on your 50min 10K is likely to be a bit of an underestimate too.

                  My general advice would be

                  don't build up too much too quickly

                  Incorporate cross-training and core strength work

                  Gradually increase the duration of your long run

                  Run on a mixture of surfaces

                  Run a half marathon half way through your plan and use that to get another estimate of possible marathon time



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dlghorner View Post

                    Hi Dreamer and thank you so much for your in depth and wholesome comment

                    I have indeed read about the wall before and have read around the burden of it, appreciating that its one thing to read and another to experience - I will read the article you listed for further info

                    In terms of the 3 points you've listed:
                    --> I'm living in a Country at the moment with a public health system and being medically trained myself (albeit not a cardiologist..) I know that the types of tests and investigations required to fully conduct a stressed review are not usually provided on the public service, however certainly something to consider paying for I've no family history of cardiac problems/sudden cardiac deaths which is the main risk factor
                    --> Diet-wise I'm extremely conscious of what I eat so hopefully no issues there
                    --> Realism is like my downfall As I said I am training 8-9 times a week at the moment so if I can maintain this consistancy I hopefully can't blame lack of training, more over ambition

                    A half marathon mid-way sounds like a good idea perhaps I will look up a suitable one online certainly my training consists of long runs like this, for example Sunday I ran 18.5k in zone 2 over 1hour 48 minutes.

                    Thanks again for your advice!

                    David
                    It happens the same to me (I'm living in Spain). The public health system covers near everything here but these kind of things. Probably your heart is fine, since you are actually running a lot but everybody that is in your same situation, should do this check before stressing the body to the limits.

                    One thing that new marathon runners often make is also to overtrain. This is also a bad thing since you can arrive to the marathon without the enough rest for your legs. And if you are going to run 42k you can have serious problems to finish.

                    As jsrunner_ said, who honestly has a very very nice time in 10k (at least imposible for me at this moment and most of the people), it's not probably you can run the marathon in the timmings you want since you are near 2 hours in 21k.

                    There are many ways to train for a marathon but in my opinion a nice thing is to try to focus in making half marathons and to try to reduce your timmings first. Try to parcicipate in 21k courses and once you think your legs can do more, it could be interesting perhaps to jump eventually to a 30k course (but not more). Don't try to hit the wall in your trainnings. It is not a nice idea to destroy your legs in your trainings ;-)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Friendly update, did the Copenhagen marathon yesterday in 3:51:45 legs are broke, and interestingly, had an Avg HR of 179 (my max is 200-205) and on the hottest day of the year so far. Chuffed! Thanks 935 for helping with the motivation

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        congratulations on your first marathon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          dlghorner congrats indeed - excellent result and very near to the projected figure - hope you enjoyed it

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yay, congrats - nice time!

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