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  • Anaerobic training effect broken on 6.00?

    Over the past two weeks, I've noticed that despite using my 935 with my Garmin HRM Run (the detachable strap model) and getting all run dynamics, my anaerobic training effect on my workouts is abnormally low, less than 1.0 and often less than 0.5, even when I spend 25-50% or more of the workout in zone 5. I've double-checked my heart rate zones are correct in the watch and Garmin connect and the mobile app and the time in zone recorded does appear to match what I would expect.

    The aerobic training effect appears to match what I'd expect based on previous workouts and perceived exertion.

    I checked with a friend who has the 935 too and he noted the same, all workouts recently with an abnormally low anaerobic training effect.

  • #2
    I'd argue that anaerobic effect never worked. I've done routines like yours and have a 0.5 effect for an entire hour long workout, but if I run stairs, and...i'm not joking here, swing my arms like a pendulum going upwards, anaerobic effect goes up. i'm not kidding. Not only that, but once it hits 2.0....stops dead. Nothing, nothing short of OVERLOADING MY MAX HR will make the Anaerobic effect budge. And I mean i've had to take my max HR to near 10 bpm beyond over an unhealthy amount of time to see change (usually in the form of .1 change). And this goes back to the start of these generations watch launch.

    It's not 6.0, it's just not accurate at all. I've given up caring. I know my body better than this "thing" all day long.

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    • #3
      "just" spending time in a particular HR Zone does not neccesarly contribute to a positive anaerobic training effect. It has to do with EPOC, meaning the post exercise effect on oxygen consumption. What pushes the effect positively is e.g. Intervalls. For me this works nicely. There is a Youtube from Garmin on EPOC and Training Effect which describes the feature well.

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      • #4
        https://youtu.be/_8_kttKl6fI

        I believe this is the YouTube video to which you referred? Thanks, that helps me understand the metric better!

        Looking back at my low anaerobic effect workouts, I think I understand what happened. The recent workouts had similar overall pace and time (basically 30ish minute build and hold near threshold) but were performed in an environment without interruptions (stoplights) thus there were no drops in my heart rate or pace.

        When I did similar workouts on a route that had more stoplights, my heart rate and pace would drop with each interruption and thus the file appears more like I am doing intervals instead of steady-state.

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        • #5
          It works fine for me. I have only seen high anaerobic TE numbers when doing hard intervals. Doing things like an obstacle course or ladder intervals almost always gives me a high Anaerobic TE just like I would expect.

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          • #6
            To be honest, this is a problem that I've seen quite a few times since the introduction of Anaerobic TE earlier this year. The trick is just to know what's actually being measured - and I confess it isn't entirely obvious. Luckily, it's pretty easy to explain.

            Training Effect scores - both aerobic and anaerobic scores - always describe the anticipated impact on the development of future performance capacity as a result of training. While Aerobic TE is fairly straightforward - development of cardiorespiratory fitness, measurable in terms of VO2max - Anaerobic TE is a bit more hazy, because there isn't a specific metric that can be used to track it. Rather, you'll likely notice improved ability to sprint, recover, and sprint again - which is important to runners, but can be especially important for athletes in sports like soccer, hockey, etc.

            Perhaps not surprisingly, the demand for Firstbeat to learn how to quantify the impact on this type of performance capacity development came from a number of conversations our professional sports department had with NHL strength and conditioning coaches. And it's been a big hit with some of the top soccer clubs we work with. Eventually, after it had been tested for about a year, it made it's way over to the consumer side of things - and debuted in the Fenix 5 last January. Great stuff by the Garmin folks to put it all together.

            Running, cycling, or doing any other type of physical activity that has your HR up and steady - zone 4/5 type stuff - isn't likely to elicit a significant Anaerobic TE score. It isn't a measure of time spent running above your lactate threshold, or what some folks call the anaerobic HR-zone. That's worth repeating. Running in your anaerobic HR-zone isn't

            Say, you go out for a hard 10k tempo run, holding steady at about 90% of your HRmax. You are absolutely going to crank out a big Aerobic TE number - but probably won't register anything significantly on the Anaerobic scale. That's things working as they should. That type of run can be expected to have the greatest impact on the development of your aerobic performance capacity - which the feedback should reflect.

            Anaerobic TE-scores will jump up when you do add intervals and sprints into the mix.

            If it helps, think of Anaerobic TE-scores as being tied to the portion of your workout when your HR is shooting up. The lower your HR when you start and the higher your HR at the peak, the greater the contribution to Anaerobic TE. The calculation itself is obviously a lot more complicated than that, but it?s a good way to think about it.

            If you want to get super nerdy, here's the Firstbeat "White Paper" on Anerobic TE.
            https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbe...09US05-171.pdf

            This is a lighter read, same subject.
            https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consume...ect-anaerobic/

            And here's some stuff with an elite middle distance runner who shared some of the training she does that elicits an Anaerobic TE - as she was preparing for the World Championships.
            https://www.firstbeat.com/en/success...ining-succeed/

            Last edited by HermanB; 10-13-2017, 05:07 AM. Reason: Added links
            Communications Specialist at Firstbeat Technologies
            www.firstbeat.com

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            • #7
              Originally posted by HermanB View Post
              ... That's worth repeating. Running in your anaerobic HR-zone isn't (nothing follows)
              Isn't what? ;-)

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              • #8
                heh, I must of gotten distracted. Sorry. ;-)

                Running in your anaerobic HR-zone isn't the key to eliciting an Anaerobic Training Effect score.
                Communications Specialist at Firstbeat Technologies
                www.firstbeat.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HermanB View Post
                  snip
                  You know, thank you for that write up, I always appreciate when a company comes out to explain how their product works.

                  BUT

                  The fact that there is literally no chart, no visual, nothing to show us what is happening beyond a bunch of numbers (which are devoid of CONTEXT) is not helpful. I don't want to use a white paper or manual charting to see these things. I bought the product so I didn't have to! Garmin does not show us EPOC, barely has a cogent chart system and lacks outright in all context for what we are doing! I'm not directing this at you, but the majority of the posts here on these forums are about how to understand just what the device is telling you. The process of how you got to this isn't really helpful, people (myself included) want to see exactly what happened, how I got there, where I am going. How Zones and TE levels look either in real time or after the fact, things like this. None of this is here, which leads to confusion and frustration.

                  I know this is the first time Firstbeat brought this TE to the watch (Anaerobic), but it's so unclear and unreliable (because we aren't seeing it work, or seem to see it not working) that people like me are just writing it off.

                  I don't need (or want) YOU to explain it, I want the metric to explain itself and it doesn't now.

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                  • #10
                    Herman, thank you for taking the time to write a detailed response that better explains what I should expect from the TE feature and how to use it to better structure my workouts. Garmin should reach out to you and have you help them redesign the in-app explanation in Garmin connect mobile that pops up when you click the question mark logo in those relevant sections and perhaps even include those links you provided for more detail.

                    I do agree that we're entering an age where we have so much data but are lacking in recommendations or at least ease of accessing recommendations on how to make it actionable for future improvements in fitness and performance.

                    Thanks again!

                    Originally posted by HermanB View Post

                    Anaerobic TE-scores will jump up when you do add intervals and sprints into the mix.

                    If it helps, think of Anaerobic TE-scores as being tied to the portion of your workout when your HR is shooting up. The lower your HR when you start and the higher your HR at the peak, the greater the contribution to Anaerobic TE. The calculation itself is obviously a lot more complicated than that, but it?s a good way to think about it.

                    If you want to get super nerdy, here's the Firstbeat "White Paper" on Anerobic TE.
                    https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbe...09US05-171.pdf

                    This is a lighter read, same subject.
                    https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consume...ect-anaerobic/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      jstpassaro if no offense intended, then certainly none taken.

                      Over the past year, Garmin and Firstbeat - independently and together - have both worked to step up communication efforts surrounding what various bits of feedback mean, what they are based on, and how you can put them to use. Why? Because these devices get very sophisticated, very fast, and when that happens it's very easy to confuse "doesn't work as I expected" with "this thing doesn't work at all."

                      The Garmin Running Dynamics and Physiology page is a great example of the effort that's being made in this area.
                      https://www.garmin.com/en-US/runningdynamics/

                      Similarly the Firstbeat Consumer Device Feature pages are another great (if I can say so myself) resource.
                      https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consume...ucts/features/

                      Of course, as anyone familiar with the internet and forum culture can confirm, there will always be people who can't be bothered to even glance at their manual or search out the information they need. They'll run straight to a public conversation and blaze away. It's a noisy minority - but noisy nonetheless - and easy to mistake for a majority.

                      I'm certainly a new denizen, here, but generally speaking, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the sophistication of some of the conversations.

                      That said, if anyone has any ideas how to break this stuff down and package it for easy digestion, send me a message. Seriously. No one would like for this stuff to be simpler than me.

                      Communications Specialist at Firstbeat Technologies
                      www.firstbeat.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HermanB View Post
                        I'm certainly a new denizen, here, but generally speaking, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the sophistication of some of the conversations.

                        That said, if anyone has any ideas how to break this stuff down and package it for easy digestion, send me a message. Seriously. No one would like for this stuff to be simpler than me.
                        Please post more Herman, it's much appreciated! And over on the other forums (e.g. 735XT).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think a basic breakdown of what sorts of activities affects the different Firstbeat features and in which ways. Possibly even a sub-forum for the purpose since some features are spread across many of the device lines.

                          This is a very good discussion on some of the more advanced features, but things like Vo2max is creeping further down the range and questions crop up in every sub-forum has new users or users moving up in the range ask the same questions. Luckily there are plenty of knowledgeable forum members who peruse many device specific threads so the questions get answered, but having a central place to discuss these things that can be pointed to might be handy to point folks to instead of giving the same responses over and over.

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                          • #14
                            Thank you ia_triguy for posting this issue, and HermanB for providing very useful information and links! As others have noted, this is fundamental information about some of the measures provided by the FR935 and other Garmin equipment. I'm afraid that most users aren't aware of all this (including me before I came across this thread). It would be helpful to make sure the info is widely disseminated.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I kind of feel any metric, even more basic things pace needs some thought as to how to use it. I mean if you can run 40 mins for 10K then perhaps "clearly" you should always run at or bit under 4:00 min/km to improve. Except of course we don't and should not. How we do learn that? Partly by trial and error, partly by reading what coaches/informed people are suggesting. Of course then nobody will agree on what pace is best for different sessions so there is always an element of self reflection in one's training.

                              I find if you put up a FAQ people will still ask after a day or two where is it and want to ask questions on it - as here. I recall Garmin have done quite a few YouTube videos in these training metrics so they are worth an initial look.

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