I don't even know how to title this...route question

Why would you expect that reordering the waypoints within a route would somehow affect the order of the waypoint names in the collection list?

You can have many routes in a list, and waypoints can appear in multiple routes in a different order. A route is just an ordered list of waypoints/viapoints.

I put a number at the start of the route name so that they are in the order that I want to use them in that list. The number forces the sort order, and the rest of the name allows the route to be uniquely identified.

I’m not sure what you are asking, so I will touch on a few things and you can ask for more information if you wish.

The reason your suggestion would not be wise is that if you reordered the waypoint list to match the route point properties, the reverse would also have to be true, i.e. changing the waypoint order would alter the order in a route. There would also be issues with multiple routes in the same list. For example, a user may wish to make alternative routes hitting the same waypoints in different orders or create a separate route to return home from a destination (conflict in order Home -> Destination and Destination -> Home).

Often there are many ways to achieve the same result. I will propose one way a program like BaseCamp could operate. A Location is an object that consists of a Latitude, Longitude and optional Elevation. A Waypoint is a separate object that consists of a Name, a Location and additional fields like Address etc. A Track is a separate object that consists of a Name and a List of Track Points. Track Points are a separate object that consists of a Location and a Time. A Route is a separate object that consists of a Name and a list of Route Points. A Route Point is a separate object that consists of a Name and a Location.

When a Route is created using a Location, the Location is used to create a Route Point and a Name is added (either grabbed from one of the map layers or assigned a unique number as the Name). When a Route is created using a Waypoint, some of the data within a Waypoint is used to create a separate Route Point. When a Route is created using a POI, a Route Point is created using information in the POI database AND a Waypoint is created using information from the same source. The point is that in my model, Route Points are not Waypoints or POI’s or Locations, but they can be created from them.

The GPX file format was proposed by a third party to allow users of different brands of devices to share data and to enable the creation of third party applications capable of using data collected by gps devices. It consists of a common part and allows expansion via Extensions. A gps brand (e.g. Garmin) is not required to fill all the possible data fields available in the common part. If a brand collects information not in the common part, it can be added via Extensions. If a brands model for things like Waypoints, Tracks and Routes differ from that of the proposed scheme it can be adapted thru the use of Extensions. When a general application like BaseCamp creates a GPX file it does not know the intended target. As a result, there can be fields within an object like a Route that the Garmin brand does not use, but another brand might. Similarly, can be Extensions that some Garmin models use and others do not.

Historically, when Garmin exports a Route that contains Route Points created from Waypoints it also sends the Waypoints. If you continue down the gpx file, you will eventually get to your Route. It will begin with <rte>. Each point you see on the Route Properties tab will begin with <rtept and end with </rtept> and should be in the same order. For an Automated Route (any Activity other than Direct) there will be a series of points that follows a path to the next Route Point. These are part of an Extension and each point will begin with <gpxx:rpt.

Why would you expect that reordering the waypoints within a route would somehow affect the order of the waypoint names in the collection list?

Well, as I was saying in the OP, the reason is portability of the routes in the order I took a lot of time to arrange from one device to another.
I haven't investigated alternative ways to do this such as copying and pasting the gpx files directly, but it may be an option.

Why would anyone want to spend a lot of time precisely order 30 waypoints on one device only to have to repeat the process if they export the routes(s) and move them to another device?

If you only work with one device then I could see how you may not see the point.

I&#8217;m not sure what you are asking, so I will touch on a few things and you can ask for more information if you wish.

The reason your suggestion would not be wise is that if you reordered the waypoint list to match the route point properties, the reverse would also have to be true, i.e. changing the waypoint order would alter the order in a route. There would also be issues with multiple routes in the same list..

Why?
Why couldn't it be so that changing the waypoint order in the route properties affected the collections list, but not necessarily the other way around? Just a matter of programming.
After all, you CANNOT re-arrange the order of the waypoints in the list. Only edit their names.
Obviously, as designed, the route properties tool IS the place to do waypoint hierarchy reordering. Not the collections list.
Am i wrong?

This issue becomes clear if you attempt to move your hard work (arranging 30 waypoints in a very efficient travel route, for example) to another device.
The export utility only considers the Collections List and not the order in the route properties.
That is the most important part of my point here.

Why would someone want to do this?
Various reasons. Personal reasons. Business reasons.
Or maybe you just bought another Garmin Nuvi model.

If you simply want to move a route and retain the waypoint order to another nuvi just send the route ... the order of waypoints would be retained. I too am struggling to see why you're suggesting what you are :confused:

Obviously, as designed, the route properties tool IS the place to do waypoint hierarchy reordering. Not the collections list.
Am i wrong?

Probably. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. To answer your questions properly requires an understanding of the capabilities of the programming language being used and how Garmin has chosen to represent complex objects like a Waypoint, a Route and a Track.

Changing the hieracrhy of Waypoints is a temporary change and is not done thru the Route Properties. Select a list containing several waypoints and swap the lower left and map windows by clicking on the tab in the middle of the left side on the map pane. Select the flag icon to see only the Waypoints. Clicking on any of the table column headers will sort the Waypoints by that header.

The ordering of Waypoints on a device is a separate issue. On my device, I have the option of alphabetical or proximity to current location. I've never owned a Nuvi so I don't know its capabilities. But again, the order of Waypoints has nothing to do with the order of user points in a Route.

You did ignored another issue - that of a separate return route. Some devices do not allow the editing or reversing of imported routes. It other cases, where a point used to shape a route falls on a divided highway a different point is required for the return route. The TO route requires the order Home, Destination while the RETURN route would requires the order Destination, Home.

You also assume that points you see under Route Properties are Waypoints. This need not be the case (cats again). As I explained, they could be Route Points that happen to have the same name as a Waypoint and built from some, but not all of the data contained in a Waypoint. But you are correct in that Garmin must have some link between a Waypoint and a Route Point created from a Waypoint. Change a Waypoint name and it will change the corresponding point in a Route.

As I wrote, when Garmin exports a Route containing Waypoints, it exports the Waypoints and the Route, not just the Route. The user points listed in a route will always remain in the same order until changed by the user and are independent of the order of the Waypoint list. Export a gpx file and examine it with Notepad or Wordpad and you will see this is so. Waypoints are listed first and the Route will follow.

The whole point of a route is that it is an ordered list of waypoints or route points. If you want to retain the order of your waypoints, put them in a route. When you export the route to another device, the waypoints will retain their order.

If you want to change the order of the waypoints in a route, you duplicate the route and then change the order using the route properties window. I do this regularly to investigate alternate routes, their distances and their estimated travel times. Once you find the favoured route, you can delete the other routes without affecting the waypoints in any way.

If you simply want to move a route and retain the waypoint order to another nuvi just send the route ... the order of waypoints would be retained. I too am struggling to see why you're suggesting what you are :confused:

Each time I tried it never saved the route order. Sussamb, are you using a 2460 or 2595?

I've never owned a Nuvi so I don't know its capabilities.

Ok, this is why we may not be seeing eye to eye on this issue.

When you export the route to another device, the waypoints will retain their order.

This was not the case when I tried. I started this thread because I could not export the routes and maintain their order. (As arranged in the Route Details, not Collections list)
Are you using a Nuvi 2460 or Nuvi 2595 ?