routes with street intersections as viapoints, NOT POIs

Hi John, thank you for your feedback. It is much appreciated.

I'll try to answer each point.

1. Whenever you import a file, a new folder for it will be automatically created. You are right, if you have it all organized in specific directories and files, then that will take some time to get imported. But once you are done with it, you will not have to open and look for files anymore. All your data will be right there. We are working on further refinement of the folders, making organization easier, and improve performance for large databases.

2. If you select the custom profile in the route properties, you can adjust the route settings per route. Then changes to the general profiles will not affect routes with custom profiles. BaseCamp actually allows custum route settings on a per-route basis, something that MapSource does not offer.

3. That is something we are currently working on, this should make it into a not too distant feature release.

4. That is something that we always felt caused more trouble than it's worth. That's because they are not consistent between our apps and our devices. As soon as we have a way to transfer categories correctly (without forcing the user to specify the exact same categories twice, on device and in our software) we will look into putting this in BC. Whoever feels strongly about waypoint categories, speak up and we might reconsider this stance.

5. Hit Ctrl-Tab to switch to the data view, select the appropriate filter (route, track etc.) and you will see that data.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm certain I'll get used to it as I used to cuss MS in the beginning. I do some event planning (offroad motorcycle) and I use the waypoint categories to filter the waypoints in some huge files I have for certain states. Gas, food, first aid and sometimes event or group based categories.

The other thing that jumps out is the lack of right click context sensitive menus. In MS you can select a route or track and right click to get a different menu of options with out going up to a button bar or menu with the mouse. This is functionality that is in most any program and seems to be missing from BC. It is a huge time saver. Here's an example:


Is there no way to transfer routes, tracks, maps and waypoints from BS to the unit? And tracks from the unit to the PC(see next item). If it is there I'm not seeing it.EDIT: I had my unit connected and didn't turn it on until after I launched BC. BC never realized it was there until I closed it and relaunched. No way I see to refresh the device list. Can I just drag a new route to the device and it will upload?

One more nit to pick: I do a lot with tracks. I ride routes and then download the tracks from the unit. I edit them in the track properties window by removing points, cutting off the beginning or end etc. Then I sometimes want to join two tracks into one for which the track edit bar in MS is a great tool. I see track cut in BS but to join two you have to dig down through the menus and then it is a crap shoot about which two ends get joined. In MS you click the first end you want to join and then click the end on the other track you want. Presto. EDIT: I copied one of the tracks from the unit to another folder I had created on a USB stick. Evidently BC thinks it's a GPS device because I am unable to edit the track unless I copy it to one of the folders under My Collection. Not a big deal but I use the USB stick a lot to share files.

thanks again for the help
John

4. That is something that we always felt caused more trouble than it's worth. That's because they are not consistent between our apps and our devices. As soon as we have a way to transfer categories correctly (without forcing the user to specify the exact same categories twice, on device and in our software) we will look into putting this in BC. Whoever feels strongly about waypoint categories, speak up and we might reconsider this stance.

Lack of waypoint categories is a complete showstopper for me, Falagar. I have all my waypoints categorized, some with multiple categories. I use many of the waypoints like custom POIs except it saves having to mess with custom POIs. Yes, it was a minor nuisance having to establish the same categories on my devices as well as on Mapsource, but it's a trivial bit of work and you only have to do it once. The payoffs are worth it.

While we're on the subject, this brings up another shortcoming of Basecamp. You can't do bulk changes in Basecamp. In Mapsource I can select a number of waypoints, select Waypoint Properties and change things like the category and symbol for all of them at one time. Can't do that in Basecamp.

By the way, you kind of slid right by John's concern about having to import all your data into Basecamp's library and the dangers once it's there. Once that stuff is in the library it is no longer treated seperately as it is when you are storing it in Windows folder/file structure. Once it is in the library it is subject to Basecamp's whims and we have little or no control over that.

Specifically, with Mapsource, if I don't load it there is no fear of Mapsource messing with it, no matter what I do. It only works on what's loaded. And if I don't save anything I can always reload the data exactly as it was before I started to mess with it. Or I can save an alternate copy with a different name and then I have the option to go back to either version.

I can do none of that with Basecamp. Once it's loaded into Basecamp that's the only version you've got and every time you make a change it's automatically "saved". There's no going back.

John gave the example of making a change that affects all routes rather than just the one you are working with. I do the same thing John described, frequently (yeah I'm another one of those pesky bikers who insists on going off the beaten track most of the time). It's just not safe to do those sorts of things in Basecamp because you have no idea what else will get screwed up in the process ... just the route you are experimenting with is bad enough or, worse, maybe all the other routes in the library as well.

In Mapsource I can experiment with route options and shaping all I want. If I don't like the results I just don't save the file. Next time I load the file the route is back the way it started.

Re: using filters. Sorry, I just find it so much easier that Mapsource has tabs for that so I don't have to mess with filters. And filters only temporarily change the display so you have to do them again every time you run Basecamp. It's not like there is a whole whack of things to separate. There are waypoints, routes, tracks and maps. That's it. There is absolutely no advantage to mix them all together in no apparent order and every reason to automatically organize them as Mapsource does on its tabs (not pushing for tabs, just for permanent automatic organization of the display so I don't have to always do it ... actually I don't ever want to have to do it).

I've never had to do it with Mapsource and since there is no benefit to not having things organized that way I see no reason to have to start now. Extra work for nothing.

I'm not ready to commit any of my data to Basecamp until I have assurance that changing one thing (route, etc.) will not cause a change to anything else and I have a lot more control over where things go and what Basecamp can and cannot do with/to my data. Mostly I don't want it to do anything unless I tell it to, explicitly.

And I want a really really simple way to get back to a known previous good state of the data, like being able to just reload a data file in Mapsource.

Another positive aspect to the way we work with Mapsource is that it's really hard to get a data file messed up with an accumulation of irrelevant crap and even if you get some junk in one that you don't want, it's easy ... downright trivial ... to get rid of it. I have multiple Garmin devices that I use. In Mapsource it's dead simple to keep the data separate that I want separate. Not so much in Basecamp. As soon as I connect a device everything on it is automatically sucked into the library and nothing I can do to control it.

...ken...

I just reread my previous post and I noticed there is a theme that distinguishes the two programs.

In Mapsource nothing happens unless I do it. Nothing gets into the data file, either from the disk or from the device, unless I explicitly load it. No magic, no harm, no foul.

In Mapsource nothing I do is permanent unless I explicitly save the work.

In Mapsource I can't ever cause myself a problem by NOT doing something.

In Basecamp it's all the opposite. Stuff happens automatically. Stuff over which I have no control. Stuff which can cause me problems. ....... If it wasn't for the last point I probably wouldn't care. But when problems arise from something I did NOT do, rather than from something I did do, I get sorely pi$$ed.

...ken...

4. That is something that we always felt caused more trouble than it's worth. That's because they are not consistent between our apps and our devices. As soon as we have a way to transfer categories correctly (without forcing the user to specify the exact same categories twice, on device and in our software) we will look into putting this in BC. Whoever feels strongly about waypoint categories, speak up and we might reconsider this stance.

IMHO, the categories was mapsource's attempt to do what basecamp does thru "lists" in the library.

My eTrex does not have "categories" for waypoints, but a close approximation is filtering by "symbol" (aka icon). But, both MS and BC present a list of icons which do not completely translate to the device, and so I often end up assigning symbols that get translated to a default on the device - which kills any categorization there. It would be truly nice if BC could be told which device's symbol set to use, or better yet, read the symbols from the device and load them as the sole choices. Perhaps even if it could convert missing symbols to custom ones, that would help. If the app and device could agree on symbols, those could be used as a form of categorization.

In Mapsource nothing I do is permanent unless I explicitly save the work.


In Basecamp it's all the opposite. Stuff happens automatically. Stuff over which I have no control.

...ken...

Yeah that is bothering me more and more as I play with BC. In one folder I have five versions of the same file with different suffixes:
co_tat.gdb
co_tat_mod.gdb
co_tat_big_bike.gdb
co_tat_hancock_tomichi.gdb
co_tat_NM_BV.gdb

These are all versions of the original with some added or subtracted sections. Without the 'save as' function I don't see an easy way to get this. You can't just modify a route without losing the original. Automatically and unprompted.

The other thing I haven't investigated is where BC stores new routes you create. Need to know that for the nightly backup.

John

In Mapsource nothing happens unless I do it. Nothing gets into the data file, either from the disk or from the device, unless I explicitly load it. No magic, no harm, no foul.

I think the difference in the two programs is more fundamental.

IMO MapSource is the equivalent of a stick-shift vehicle. You have full control over what happens and when. However you can't drive (unless cruising) with a coffee in your hand, talking on a cell phone etc. It's a "drivers" program.

BaseCamp on the other hand is an automatic. You get in, start the engine and just press on the gas pedal. You can eat your McDonalds and/or talk on the phone while driving (and many DO!). What's a clutch and who needs one anyway?

MapSource was developed over a decade ago before mass market GPS units existed. It got the job done but you had to understand what was going on.

IMO BaseCamp is intended for the modern "I just want it to work" type of user.

These two philosophies are opposites and it's difficult, without different programs or an "expert mode", to reconcile them. That said Garmin has obviously decided, probably for resource/cost reasons, to support the predominate philosophy (i.e. BaseCamp).

Personally this is a step backwards for me as I've been using MapSource, and other Garmin software and devices, for over a decade. That said I know I'm a dying breed. Catering to advanced users doesn't make a lot of sense when 95% of users "just want it to work" without thinking.

That's my 2c worth anyway ;-)

Or, if you'd rather create waypoints first for your via-points, you can drag and a waypoint to a route. As soon as you hover over a route, the route properties dialog will open and allow you to drag the point to where you want it. Then use the re-calculate button to re-calculate. I attached another screen-shot trying to illustrate this.

Only works up to opening the route properties dialog box. Once I drag the waypoint over to the properties box the null circle appears. What I can do is drop the waypoint on top of the route and it will insert it at the bottom of the route on the properties box. But I still can't click on it and drag it. I can highlight it, click the up arrow and it will move up one place. If I want to move it up two places, I have to repeat the same process.

Also, I think this relates to the Cntl+Z issue we discussed earlier. Once I encounter the null circle, Cntl+Z won't work but the undo button will.

Again this is version 3.2.1 with XP and service pack 3

IMO BaseCamp is intended for the modern "I just want it to work" type of user.

Yes. And in fairness to Falagar he has already shared with us that that is Garmin's philosophy going forward: to support the Least Common Denominator user, and I mean that with no disrespect. They are, after all, in the vast majority. And they do want it to "just work". (Don't we all???)

The unfortunate thing is that it doesn't. "Just Work", that is.

I see no evidence, when I compare this forum and the Mapsource forum and the quality and quantity of questions in both, that Basecamp is being any more successful at supporting the LCD user than Mapsource was. It's causing as many learning/usage problems; just different. And sometimes the answer to usage questions is: You can't.

At least in Mapsource the answer is usually that you can but you might, first, need to learn where they've hidden it. In Basecamp they take the attitude that if something might cause a bit of a problem for someone just leave it out. (Where's a bashing-head-against-wall icon when you need it??)

...ken...

Jeez, it's hard to me to keep up with this thread. Again, I appreciate all the feedback!

I'll try to address one after another.

I do some event planning (offroad motorcycle) and I use the waypoint categories to filter the waypoints in some huge files I have for certain states. Gas, food, first aid and sometimes event or group based categories.

One way to achieve this in BaseCamp would be to use folders to categorize data. When you put something from My Collection into a folder it doesn't get moved there, it just creates a reference. So you can waypoints (or routes, tracks...) in several folders at the same time.

That being said, that work-around might not be what you want. We understand that categorizing is an important feature to a lot of our users. We'll see what we can do about this in the future.

The other thing that jumps out is the lack of right click context sensitive menus. In MS you can select a route or track and right click to get a different menu of options with out going up to a button bar or menu with the mouse. This is functionality that is in most any program and seems to be missing from BC. It is a huge time saver. Here's an example:

Context-menus might seem simple to you (now that you have learnt how to use MapSource), but for a lot of first-time users context-menus are not simple and not easily discoverable. Which is why we sparingly use them in BaseCamp. You will get a context menu when you right-click on something in the lists.

Is there no way to transfer routes, tracks, maps and waypoints from BS to the unit? And tracks from the unit to the PC(see next item). If it is there I'm not seeing it.EDIT: I had my unit connected and didn't turn it on until after I launched BC. BC never realized it was there until I closed it and relaunched. No way I see to refresh the device list. Can I just drag a new route to the device and it will upload?

Two things here. One, BaseCamp not immediately recognizing your device (probably an older USB device like the GPS 60?) is a bug in BaseCamp 3.2.1, which will be fixed in 3.2.2.

Two, you can drag-and drop data to your device, right-click on data and use "Send To", or use the main menu: Edit -> Send To.

One more nit to pick: I do a lot with tracks. I ride routes and then download the tracks from the unit. I edit them in the track properties window by removing points, cutting off the beginning or end etc. Then I sometimes want to join two tracks into one for which the track edit bar in MS is a great tool. I see track cut in BS but to join two you have to dig down through the menus and then it is a crap shoot about which two ends get joined. In MS you click the first end you want to join and then click the end on the other track you want. Presto. EDIT: I copied one of the tracks from the unit to another folder I had created on a USB stick. Evidently BC thinks it's a GPS device because I am unable to edit the track unless I copy it to one of the folders under My Collection. Not a big deal but I use the USB stick a lot to share files.

Just in case you did not see that elsewhere: BaseCamp 3.2.1 has an issue with track duplication, so please don't use that till 3.2.2 is available.

You can choose the order of the joined tracks in the Track Join tool. Use the arrows to move track segments.

Editing data on the USB stick will be possible in a future maintenance release.

Yes. And in fairness to Falagar he has already shared with us that that is Garmin's philosophy going forward: to support the Least Common Denominator user, and I mean that with no disrespect. They are, after all, in the vast majority. And they do want it to "just work". (Don't we all???).

I'd be willing to pay $$ for an app that works more like Google Earth, has lots more flexibility and features than BC and MS combined, and integrates more tightly with my Garmin device (currently an eTrex, but could be a Nuvi in coming months) so that I might more easily exploit all the features of the device.