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consistently unproductive

I bought a 645M 3 months ago and it has shown my training status as "unproductive" over most of that time, including almost 100% of the past month.

My VO2 Max calculation is at 43, but has been as high as 45.

I run trails, so my actual run time varies a lot over different terrain, but I believe I am slightly faster and my flat-course time is faster (but still pretty slow) and my runs are getting longer.

I typically run 3 times a week, training effect is around for an 4 aerobic training effect 5 mile group run, around 3.25 for a slow flat 8 mile long run, and upper 2's for a 5 mile easy recovery run.

Training load is 'optimal'.

I have a smart scale that updates my weight in Garmin's system, have been dropping weight (5lbs a month), and I know that is part of the VO2 max formula. Could that be throwing it off? I'd expect weight loss to raise my VO2 max, all else being equal. Is it possible my physical fitness really is getting worse, and I am only running better because of the weight loss?

The weather changed from cool to hot, I know I'd be a lot faster if I had the May weather again - could that be it?

Very frustrating to pay for advance run dynamics only to have it tell you that you are unproductive no matter what you do.

0 chunkywizard over 7 years ago

Have a rest. Try running in zone 1/2. Try running on the flat. All of these things will help. If your TE is up at 4 three times a week you are pushing too hard for too many runs, that’s why you are unproductive.

0 Former Member over 7 years ago

Im not too sure that Garmins calculations can cope if you run outside of a set plan. I run every day and it can not understand a basic thing like a short slow run is recovery , you can have a productive run even 3 days on the trott then pop in a short easy one and it reports unproductive instead of recovery . It is difficult for programming to take into account every eventuality. I thought it might learn but I dont think it does.

0 R_Tellis over 7 years ago

Unproductive usually comes with a drop in Vo2Max so the fact that yours has gone down with a stable training load number is probably a big part of it.

Are you using the Run or the Trail Run app? The Trail Run won’t do a Vo2Max calculation because the slower pace off road skews the numbers. You might see higher Vo2Max if you only used the regular Run app when doing your runs on easier terrain, but used Trail Run otherwise and would most likely give you a productive status.

0 Teriemer over 7 years ago

Im not too sure that Garmins calculations can cope if you run outside of a set plan. I run every day and it can not understand a basic thing like a short slow run is recovery , you can have a productive run even 3 days on the trott then pop in a short easy one and it reports unproductive instead of recovery . It is difficult for programming to take into account every eventuality. I thought it might learn but I dont think it does.

This is very well said. I'm riding quite a lot on my bike - that is 5-6 times a week and about 450 km. I'm following a dynamic training plan based on wattage, that takes duration and wattage and frequency into account. I have never been lighter, nor stronger :-) Yet Garmin often tells me that I'm unproductive...?! In addition, that training program has many times said I'm 100% recovered...

I think that Garmin's calculation is solely based on HR. So that means with all the error margin included. We all know HR is quite affected from many factors. I guess the system can not take that into account.

So take it for what is, an input of where you are. Yet if you feel you're on top today; then just go for it ;-)

Edit: today and according to TP my TSB is +7, from 2peak I'm 86% recovered. This is because my seasonal highlight is in one week, so I'm reducing trainingload to get recovered. Yet I have been unproductive the last week and yesterday my Vo2max dropped 2 points...

This makes absolutely no sense. Both TP and 2P is base their numbers on wattage, duration, and personal parameters, so they're far more accurate...

0 Former Member over 7 years ago

Unproductive usually comes with a drop in Vo2Max so the fact that yours has gone down with a stable training load number is probably a big part of it.

Are you using the Run or the Trail Run app? The Trail Run won’t do a Vo2Max calculation because the slower pace off road skews the numbers. You might see higher Vo2Max if you only used the regular Run app when doing your runs on easier terrain, but used Trail Run otherwise and would most likely give you a productive status.

Thanks for this info, often forget to use the trail run option thinking its only the different displays will have to remember .

0 BradVincent over 7 years ago

Have a rest. Try running in zone 1/2. Try running on the flat. All of these things will help. If your TE is up at 4 three times a week you are pushing too hard for too many runs, that’s why you are unproductive.

I said I do 1 run around 4, a run around 3.25 and a run in the upper 2's.

0 BradVincent over 7 years ago

Im not too sure that Garmins calculations can cope if you run outside of a set plan. I run every day and it can not understand a basic thing like a short slow run is recovery , you can have a productive run even 3 days on the trott then pop in a short easy one and it reports unproductive instead of recovery . It is difficult for programming to take into account every eventuality. I thought it might learn but I dont think it does.

What do you mean? I have a set plan, I don't just run whatever and whenever I want. Do you mean I need a Garmin provided plan or to enter my plan somewhere?

0 BradVincent over 7 years ago

Unproductive usually comes with a drop in Vo2Max so the fact that yours has gone down with a stable training load number is probably a big part of it.

Are you using the Run or the Trail Run app? The Trail Run won’t do a Vo2Max calculation because the slower pace off road skews the numbers. You might see higher Vo2Max if you only used the regular Run app when doing your runs on easier terrain, but used Trail Run otherwise and would most likely give you a productive status.

I am using the regular run app for everything, and this is probably it. I've had to climb with my hands and been deeper than my shoes in water or mud, so it probably gets confused comparing that to a flat well maintained surface.

0 Former Member over 7 years ago

What do you mean? I have a set plan, I don't just run whatever and whenever I want. Do you mean I need a Garmin provided plan or to enter my plan somewhere?

No im not suggesting anything just that it appears to me that the watch with regards to training load is geared to what you would see on a training plan that has the correct hard efforts against easy. I dont follow a plan and most of the time just run and if I get say three efforts above 4 te then the watch gets grumpy and tells me im unproductive. If I get two or three runs at 2 te then It has me in recovery then I presume the next stage would be peaking. At the end of the day its only a guide and will not cover all types of training .

0 HermanB over 7 years ago

Im not too sure that Garmins calculations can cope if you run outside of a set plan. I run every day and it can not understand a basic thing like a short slow run is recovery , you can have a productive run even 3 days on the trott then pop in a short easy one and it reports unproductive instead of recovery . It is difficult for programming to take into account every eventuality. I thought it might learn but I dont think it does.

Hi Keith,

Happy to try and help make sense of your situation, but I'm not quite following what you expect your watch to be telling you.

Training Status isn't supposed to be telling you the specific impact of individual runs. Rather it is looking at longer, larger trends - of which your most recent run is a part.

I'm not sure there is a specific feature that is designed to recognize your 'short slow run' as recovery. In the language of Training Status, "Recovery" indicates a lighter Training Load than usual.

If you're looking for the specific impact of individual runs, then Training Effect is the feedback you're after, although it is only describing the impact in terms of the potential development of aerobic or anaerobic performance capacity - not for example - 'this run was good for promoting recovery'.