Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Dr Phil — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:35:09 GMT

The only way to know your true VO2max is from a lab test. Anything else is guesswork, albeit educated guesswork. As you note they are

[quote userid="702621" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1667550#1667550"]rough VO2 max formulas[/quote]

Even the ones used by exercise physiologists to estimate VO2max come with a wide margin of error.

[quote userid="702621" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1667551#1667551"]I should point out that my Garmin's VO2 max hasn't budged during periods of illness or injury when I couldn't maintain my fitness level. It stays at 51.[/quote]

And that too is not surprising. While your fitness will have decreased it would not be surprising for your VO2max to remain relatively unchanged. You would many months of inactivity or incapacity before you would expect your VO2max to begin to noticeably decrease. What will have changed during any periods of ill health will be the pace you could reach at VO2max. Performance outcomes can be substantially improved with little to no change in VO2max

Perhaps read this to get a better understanding of what VO2max is - https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/fitness/whats-a-good-vo2-max-for-me/

Here's a link to a peer-reviewed study that derived a new formula to estimate VO2max without exercise - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16095416/

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

2785090 — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:16:29 GMT

Also, I should point out that my Garmin's VO2 max hasn't budged during periods of illness or injury when I couldn't maintain my fitness level. It stays at 51. It's wrong.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

2785090 — Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:14:46 GMT

https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/vo2-max

How do I know? Try any of the rough VO2 max formulas out there. Age 43, resting HR 39, max HR 185.

I don't need to perform a 20 minute test for you to acknowledge 51 is way off. All you really need is resting HR and age to get an approximate VO2 max.

For emphasis: I row a 6:50 2k erg and a 17:55 5k. I run 3.5 miles at a 6:40 pace.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Dr Phil — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 22:23:19 GMT

[quote userid="702621" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1667465#1667465"]It's been there for over 2 years despite wearing the watch for every workout[/quote]

That's not unusual if you are a well-trained athlete. Mine has hardly moved for many years, oscillating around the high 40s (I'm 66). When I have done a test in the lab there's not been much variation.

VO2max cannot, and will not keep increasing once a threshold has been reached. Since it's a measure of how much oxygen the body can uptake there are physiological limitations to the number. Once the 'limit' has been reached, fitness gains come from increasing the percentage of VO2max that you can use at any particular intensity.

[quote userid="702621" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1667465#1667465"] My VO2 Max is somewhere north of 65. Maybe even 70?[/quote]

How do you know this?

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Former Member — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 22:21:52 GMT

I always thought that Garmin was geared more towards athletes and not regular people like me. My VO2max is 31, and I'm 66 years old. When I google a VO2max for a 66 year old, it says I'm above average, but Garmin puts me in the poor scale.

They use Firstbeat for all that crap. I call it WorstBeat... lol

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

2785090 — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 22:10:02 GMT

Garmin's VO2 Max stat is a joke.

Mine does not budge off of 51 no matter what I do. It's been there for over 2 years despite wearing the watch for every workout.

I'm 43, resting HR 39, max HR 185. My VO2 Max is somewhere north of 65. Maybe even 70? It bums me out that Garmin's V02 Max is so useless but I appreciate the watch for logging my exercise.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:27:28 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1559118#1559118"]I wasn't sure if 4 points in a month was a significant improvement or not[/quote]

It is good! The range of potential increase obviously depends on your starting point. If you have trained all your life to be a top athlete, you probably have maxed out your VO2 capacity and optimizing for other metrics. If you are a beginner or haven't trained systematically, you can expect significant gains fast; these gains will taper off though...

"Indeed, a beginner may increase his/her fitness level during 4- 10 weeks of successive training by up to 10-20% [18-19], although even 44% increase in VO2max in ten weeks has been reported for persons with average aerobic fitness, by using very high-intensity interval training [20]. Still, for highly trained athletes who already have a very high VO2max, it is extremely hard to significantly improve aerobic fitness within a short time period"

Microsoft Word - EE-white-paper_1 7 6_modified_corrected 2.doc (firstbeat.com)

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Sun, 22 Jan 2023 02:57:49 GMT

I wasn't sure if 4 points in a month was a significant improvement or not, but the fact that I'm dual recording on the watch, which has no awareness of TR, seems to validate the results. I really do like the simplicity of TR, even though some of the workouts are incredibly difficult. I finish every workout, even if my heart rate is pegged at the max.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Sun, 22 Jan 2023 00:36:08 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1559062#1559062"]VO2max has been consistently improving.[/quote]

Nice improvement over just a month indeed! Congratulations!

Thanks for sharing the progress

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:34:51 GMT

Quick update on this. Since I started using TrainerRoad, VO2max has been consistently improving.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 23:24:45 GMT

You don’t owe anything.

My assumption is that your VO2 max is underestimated because you have not executed super hard workouts yet, so the watch see a very flat power duration curve at this time.

As you go with the TR plan which is FTP based, you will encounter these workouts

Report back on the VO2 changes in a few weeks!

Happy holidays!

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 20:38:52 GMT

Thanks. I feel like I owe you for all the help. Let me know where to send you money.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 17:22:47 GMT

Excellent. As you accumulate VO2 Max, Anaerobic and Sprint-like workouts, your VO2 Max should increase. Happy training!

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 16:45:00 GMT

TR ramp test says FTP is 158. So I will just start with that and see where I get following the TR Short Power Build - Mid Volume plan. Too bad Garmin is all over the place, but oh well.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 14:48:44 GMT

I saw that you kept referencing TR.

I can see when an idea isn't working out. The idea being to use Garmin for all of my health and fitness monitoring and couching needs.

I decided this morning to just use TR instead of Garmin for my cycling training. I'm going to ramp test on the platform this morning to get a more accurate FTP and then start on the Short Power Build - Mid Volume plan. It seems to be in alignment with my goal and where I'm currently at as far as volume goes.

I'm guessing that my FTP will be around 150-170. I'll let you know.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 22:55:48 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545830#1545830"]Check out this sprint workout that Garmin suggested for me today.[/quote]

So that you know, the spirit of these workouts is to go full speed for the higher power interval. So I wouldn't use the trainer in trainer mode. I would use it in PWR mode for this.

In the last few seconds of the previous interval, you'd start accelerating the RPM to 110+, and then essentially push up the resistance to maximize the power output. After one or 2 intervals, you will get a good idea of the actual maximal power.

Not only it will give you the best ouf to the workout, but it will feed maximal effort to the watch, which is very important for a more accurate VO2 max and anaerobic capacity perspective.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 21:41:44 GMT

Yes, it looks like the watch is underestimating the power you can deploy at VO2 max and/or you max power.

Please do the workout I described above and report back. I will be interested in your perceived rate of exhaustion at the end of the 5mn. You should be wasted then, so if 200-230W is not high enough, push higher but finish strong. You don't want to do less than 5mn at maximal power.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 20:35:35 GMT

Thanks.

A new term for me, "V02 max power". I will check this out and report back.

Check out this sprint workout that Garmin suggested for me today. The Garmin controls the trainer and keeps me at the proper wattage. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/10176351784

The workout just barely kept me in zone two. There were times when I dropped out of zone 1 and I felt no different than relaxing on the couch. I finish out 18 miles and didn't feel like I'd worked out at all.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:53:55 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545468#1545468"]I’m riding 1 hour and 30 minutes at 85 watts per Garmin’s suggestions. I don’t even feel like I’m pedaling at all. It’s way too easy.[/quote]

Yes it should be easy but it looks "too easy". 85 watts is 70% of 121 W which is lower than your FTP, and certainly than your power at VO2 Max.

Did you execute a VO2 Max, Anaerobic or Sprint suggested workout yet? If yes, can you share those?

With all the changes and tweaks in your preset data, I am afraid your VO2 Max model is in flux, to put it gently.

Are you ready to execute a quick VO2 Max test so we can have a reference point for the corresponding power?

- set your trainer as a PWR sensor

- Warm up for about 10 minutes.

- 5 x 1 minute at 251 Threshold with 1-minute at 100W (total 10 mn section). During the last few seconds recovery, start increasing your cadence to at least 100rpm

- Increase your resistance to target 200-230W or higher, and keep there for 5mn, @100+ rpm. We should be close to your maximal effort for this time duration.

- Slow down for a 10- to 15-minute cool-down

After you’re finished with your session, take your average power during the 5mn maximal effort portion of the workout to identify your current VO2 max power.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/test-aerobic-fitness-vo2max/

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:35:45 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545349#1545349"]Further, my low VO2 max seems to be caused by my physical weakness[/quote]

I don't think this is correct, as VO2 Max is the best metrics for cardiovascular fitness and it sets the upper limit of the production of energy via the aerobic metabolism (mitochondrial respiration). It is generally accepted as an indication of overall fitness, but a high VO2 max is necessary but not sufficient to be a top endurance athlete.

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545349#1545349"]poor training, underlying illness, genetics, a combo of all three, etc.[/quote]

These are good assumptions.

If you training regularly using the suggested workouts, you will trend up towards your maximal potential VO2 Max which is highly dependent on your genetics and history.

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545349#1545349"]My understanding is that anaerobic is a big part of increasing physical strength[/quote]

Not really. In Cycling, anaerobic intervals are typically executed at higher cadence (>100), to maximize efficiency. You can increase strength by using a low cadence (<70) very high power. So you can try to do.

Training on strength and flexibility will help your cycling endurance, and is highly recommended as part as any endurance activity, but will have a minor contribution to your VO2 Max.

Higher intensities training (Threshold, VO2 Max, Anaerobic, Sprints) will be the most effective at maximizing your VO2 Max, but again a balanced training is better overall.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:17:58 GMT

When I first bought my watch, I just continued working out like I had been, which was astronomically high compared to the astronomically low acute load Garmin thought I could handle. The Watch suggested rest for days because it seemed to pick up on me doing 5 times the acute load it started me out with.

The following doc seems to align with my observations which is why I wondered why Garmin suggests base when I need anaerobic: https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=oYknGZ910l1pfBNzkDHX6A

Like you said, maybe what they think will result in anaerobic doesn’t. After-all, based on the VO2max Garmin gave me, it’s not surprising. I’m being assigned workouts that would work best for a ten year old girl even though I’m a grown man. I’m riding 1 hour and 30 minutes at 85 watts per Garmin’s suggestions. I don’t even feel like I’m pedaling at all. It’s way too easy.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Etupes25 — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:57:19 GMT

[quote userid="558265" url="~/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/epix-2/313642/low-vo2-max-always/1545438#1545438"] I was hoping that the suggested workouts would be I alignment with my training status[/quote]

They are. I have been using these suggested workouts for several months now and I have shared my general observations here:

https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/fenix-7-series/303591/what-are-the-limits-of-daily-suggested-workouts/1536350#1536350

To answer your question, the suggested workouts outside of a planned race, are essentially aiming at:

- generating a balanced focus over time, which is typically along the lines of 80/20 plans

- optimizing the ramp of your acute load and therefore your overall training stress (all EPOC based).

I do not think they explicitly take into account the training readiness, or its sub-metrics. You will get a suggested workout even if the recovery hours are high, or your HRV is very low. It will be up to you to skip the training based on training readiness.

It is not because you have a particular deficit in one of the training focus that the following workout will try to tackle it directly.

In other words, a deficit in one or two training focus areas will be filled over time as you will encounter the different types of training and the "imbalancing" workload will fade away in the past.

Also, be ready to have a workout label after execution that doesn't match the title or purpose of the suggested workout. The main reason for that is that the design of the workout is still excellent but generic (interval and rest duration). The targets are individualized but seem on the lower end of one's target range.

In my experience, I need to push higher for threshold and above workouts. For sprints, I go as fast as I can. For anaerobic and threshold, I am for the upper limit of the range or higher.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

[Redacted] — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:48:05 GMT

I won't do the race, either. But the training plan includes a lot of nice 1 hour workouts. The long (1-3 hours) rides are Zone 2 Aerobic. You can shorten them if you like.

I've never had any shortages with this plan.

You can set up a plan and take a look. It fills your GC calendar with workouts. If you don't like the plan, you can delete it no problem.

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

Droogles — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 17:20:55 GMT

Oh. I saw that. I’m not interested in riding a century, ever, even though I’m pretty sure I could even now. I was hoping that the suggested workouts would be I alignment with my training status. I guess that’s not the case?

RE: Low VO2 Max ALWAYS

[Redacted] — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 16:45:22 GMT

Open GC, go to Training & Planning -> Training Plans -> Find a Plan -> Cycling. Pick a plan. Metric Century (100km Race) is pretty good for beginners.

It's less adaptive, but you'll get structured workouts that actually have a structure.

The plan should keep you busy for a good couple of months.